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luCCIni escribió:este juego lo venderan en españa? o todos los comprais de importacion... gracias y perdon si esta respondida.
4N63L escribió:Y la intro de Ray Lewis.... clavada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkqx0iYcyE
Estas moñadas me encantan, son esos detallitos que hacen que un juego sea mas especial como le pasaba al 2K5.
SkayNeT_X escribió:Los detallitos, las mejoras graficas, la animación... todo eso está muy bien, pero lo que de verdad me gustaría que mejoraran es la IA
Ejemplo de bloqueos penosos y carentes de sentido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yExet2O ... re=related
Este retorno es otro buen ejemplo, prefiero que la IA de mis compañeros hagan holding antes de esto...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plsakxQD ... re=related
En esta C y RG hacen un doble bloqueo al linea, en una jugada sin FB, una vez realizado el bloqueo inicial lo lógico es liberar y bloquear al LB que está entrando en blitz. Ese doble bloqueo tan prolongado no tiene sentido, debería ser un toque y fuera.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhm5K3OT ... re=related
capellista escribió:Un vídeo ingame de hace un par de días:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2SuKRS89i0
Deadly Heretic escribió:capellista escribió:Un vídeo ingame de hace un par de días:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2SuKRS89i0
Ese vídeo es fake ¿Palmer QB de los Bengals? xDD
capellista escribió:Que no tenga las plantillas actualizadas TODAVÍA, no significa que un vídeo sea fake...
capellista escribió:Un vídeo ingame de hace un par de días:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2SuKRS89i0
They say football is all about "team," but who doesn't come into the NFL dreaming of being a superstar? Developer Tiburon is hoping to make gamers feel like gridiron studs with some long-overdue improvements to Madden's Superstar mode.
Superstar puts you in the cleats of your own created character, just as it has the past few years, but now you have real control over your player's destiny. Gone are the arbitrary attribute bumps, the pointless practices, and the feeling that you're working towards nothing more than the next game.
The whole point of taking over the career of a single player is that you're going to raise that player from practice squad walk-on to Hall of Famer. And a big part of that experience is being able to choose how your player improves and the type of player you become.
Superstar mode is now built off skill points, which you can spend however you like -- focus on speed and spectacular catch ability for your player or dedicate yourself to becoming a powerful possession receiver. Points are earned for your performance on the field and for completing practices, but those points are never tied to any specific stats.
Madden NFL 12 Gameplay Feature
Just because you got your points charging up the middle as a halfback, dragging linemen five yards at a time, you don't automatically increase your ability to break tackles or your overall strength. Maybe you want to better your catching ability so your tank of a running back can become a viable threat in pass plays. Or you could continue to bulk up, becoming an unstoppable force on the ground.
Your player will start with an overall 60 rating -- not exactly an NFL legend -- with some skill points in the bank for a bit of customization. The cost of each attribute depends on the position. Skills that are necessary for the position (say, a quarterback's passing ability) are cheaper And, as you might expect, the higher your stat, the more skill points it costs to increase that ability.
Practices now have a purpose because of the new experience points system. Each practice session gives you ten plays to rack up points. Using an improved version of Gameflow, Madden's computer-controlled play-calling option, you run through random plays you might see on game day. The better you perform, the more points you earn. And those points in turn are spent to improve your player. There are no silly focused sessions to improve specific abilities. It's simple and it should open up considerably more freedom in Superstar mode. As a result, Tiburon's hope is that no two Superstars will be the same.
To that end, there's more to your player than just his attributes. New this year are traits and tendencies, which you set to determine the mental aspects of your player. After all, two linebackers might have a high tackle rating, but one could always play it safe and wrap up the ball carrier while the other always wants to put a little hurt into the opponent.
Also helping to separate players with similar ratings is the reborn player roles, which some might remember from last generation's Madden. There are more than 20 roles, most of which are earned by your play on the field. These set who you are within your organization. You could be a wily veteran "mentor," for example, who helps a rookie improve during the season. Come back to IGN on Friday for a whole lot more on player roles and how they reshape Franchise mode.
Aside from making the best player possible over a long career, a whole load of additional bells and whistles have been added to Superstars mode. A fresh interface, new equipment, improved player creation settings and more should finally put to rest any complaints that Tiburon is ignoring one of Madden's best modes.
And, of course, few players stay in one place throughout their career. At the start of Superstars you can enter the NFL draft (and leave your fate in the hands of an NFL GM) or you can choose the team you like and sign as a free agent walk-on for your rookie season. If things don't work out, you can stomp your feet like Jay Cutler and demand a trade. You're then provided a list of teams interested in your services. Pick where you want to go and you're off. It's as simple as that.
One thing that I dig is that Superstars mode recognizes that, hey, you want to be an NFL Hall of Famer. And to that end, when you are nearing game, season or career records, you'll be notified. I doubt anyone will feel the intense pressure a true Hall of Famer does when they are on the brink of breaking one of the NFL's revered records, but it's still cool that it's given attention.
It's been a long time coming, but Madden's Superstars mode is finally getting the attention it deserves. And Franchise mode is getting a whole lot more, which I'll discuss tomorrow.
Barrakux escribió:A quien le interese me parece que la demo de NCAA 12 sale hoy
cristian_rm92 escribió:Está en la store europea? No juego a un juego de este tipo desde Rugby 06....
RBLL87 escribió:cristian_rm92 escribió:Está en la store europea? No juego a un juego de este tipo desde Rugby 06....
Como me jode cuando comparan al rugby con el futbol americano
Guardy94 escribió:Yo me lo he bajado de la Store de Usa.
Guardy94 escribió:Yo me lo he bajado de la Store de Usa.
Franchise Mode Dynamic Player Performance
“The biggest thing to happen to Franchise mode since you started playing it”
That’s not an exaggeration. This IS the biggest change we’ve made to Franchise mode in years and it’s the feature I’m the most excited about.
I play every sports game on the market and I’ve always been frustrated by the fact that when I play a career or season mode, every game I play feels exactly the same. The players always play exactly like their ratings and there’s no such thing as having a good or bad day. It’s the one thing that has always ruined the immersion factor for me.
In the NFL, when you go to a game or turn on the TV, you never know what’s going to happen. Is Michael Vick going to have the game of his life or struggle the entire game? We don’t know…and that’s why we love sports. They’re unpredictable.
In Franchise mode this year, we’ve captured that unpredictable feeling and it makes each game feel different every time you start it.
Here’s how it works…
Each week, every player’s ratings will be different from the week before and will vary based on specific traits tied to our all-new Dynamic Player Performance feature, which we’ll discuss at E3.
Think of it in the old adage of “Any Given Sunday” – there are a multitude of factors that impact how a player performs each week, and this is now replicated in Franchise mode.
If a player is inconsistent, you could see pretty significant rating swings from week-to-week.
One week you might get the 90 overall Michael Vick and the next week you might get the 70 overall Michael Vick. Or you could just get the 80 overall Michael Vick.
If a player is very consistent, their ratings will only change slightly each week and you’ll typically always know what you’re getting (example: Peyton Manning or Tom Brady).
Building around these players (and finding them in free agency and the draft) provides an entirely new layer of strategy to the game.
A player that is coming off of a terrible game is “on a cold streak”. That streak ensures that they’ll go into their next game with ratings lower than normal.
The opposite is true for a player on a hot streak.
Players on streaks can only continue those streaks for a maximum of three games before they are re-set to original ratings.
We’ve also added tendency and trait progression to the game this year, so players actually change throughout your franchise. Some players stay the same (since that’s what defines them), while others will grow.
If a player is inconsistent as a rookie, they can become more consistent as they get older and mature (example: a QB sensing pressure better as they age).
Expanded Rosters and Cut Days
“The feature you’ve requested the most”
This is definitely the most requested Franchise mode feature in at least the last five years.
Every day on Twitter or the forums, I read at least one comment where someone asks if the game is ever going to get expanded rosters.
Well, you’ve got it. We allow 75 players per team in the preseason now.
Here’s how it works…
In year one, the shipped rosters will probably be pretty full. I’m guessing each team will have around 70 real players on the roster.
In future years, we’ll add training camp invites to the rosters to expand them up to 75.
All of those invitees and any rookies on the team will have their ratings locked at the start of the preseason. Each week that those players stay on the roster, we’ll unlock a few ratings for them. Their overall rating will evolve as we release those ratings, giving you a better idea of how good they really are. Just because a training camp invitee’s overall rating says it’s a 99 in week one doesn’t mean that his real overall is that high.
By the end of the preseason, if you keep a rookie or training camp invite on the roster for all four weeks, his ratings will be completely unlocked and you’ll know his true overall rating. At that point, you’ll know if you made a mistake by keeping him or if you found a diamond in the rough.
As we unlock those ratings, we also ask you to cut the roster down each week.
In week one, we may only ask you to cut three players but by the end of the preseason, you’ll need to cut eight or more.
The balancing act is determining whether you should cut a veteran to keep one of these camp invitees or rookies.
We also do an interesting thing with rookies you draft beyond year one in franchise mode.
Let’s say that you went through the scouting process and never scouted a QB who was projected to go in the top 10. You get to the offseason and head into the draft. That QB falls to you at pick #15 and you pull the trigger and draft him. When you sign him to a contract, his ratings will not be immediately unlocked. He’ll have to go through the rating unlock process in the preseason just like the training camp invites. If you scouted a player fully and then drafted him, his ratings will be unlocked going into the preseason.
This really makes you focus on scouting some of those late round picks instead of just blindly drafting them.
And one more thing…in the game, we swap out depth charts to match what teams typically do in real life in the preseason (let the backups play the entire fourth game or take the starters out at halftime of the third preseason game).
This allows you to get a really good look at the players you’re thinking about cutting every week.
New Rookie Scouting System
“A much needed upgrade to the scouting system”
When we were sitting down and talking about what new features we wanted in Franchise mode this year, a new scouting system was pretty high on the list.
Last year’s system was neither fun or challenging…it made the draft ridiculously easy since it gave away a player’s potential before you even started scouted them.
All you needed to do was keep an eye on that potential rating during the draft and you’d draft every late round sleeper in the game.
That’s gone and it’s been replaced by a much more simple, yet challenging system.
There are now several scouting stages, including the regular season, Pro Days, NFL Combine and individual workouts.
At the start of the regular season, every draft rookie’s ratings are locked.
During each stage, you’re allowed to select a limited number of players to scout and the stage itself determines which ratings will be unlocked.
If you scout a player during the Combine stage, you will unlock his physical ratings like speed, agility and strength. If you scout them in Pro Days, you’ll unlock some of his intangibles.
If you choose to scout him during individual workouts, you’ll unlock everything…including his potential and traits. The catch is that you can only scout a small amount of players during individual workouts…so you’ll need to unlock as much information as you can before you get there.
Trust me…this makes the entire process much more challenging and rewarding this year. I’ve gone through a draft and because I scouted poorly, I ended up with a class full of busts. I’ve also found my future Hall of Fame QB in my 49ers franchise by scouting the right players.
New Free Agent Bidding Feature
“Offseason Free Agency is now fast paced and interactive!”
Another feature that had become a little stale was offseason free agency.
We knew from the first planning stages that we needed a new take on the process and since I was a big fan of the free agent bidding feature from NFL Head Coach 09, we re-created it in Madden NFL 12 this year.
When you enter free agency, you’ll need to be ready to go. This year’s feature is very fast paced and it’s designed to be hectic. You need to make decisions quickly as you target players since the other teams are not waiting for you.
You’ll face off against the other 31 teams in an interactive bidding environment as you try to win the rights to sign the player to a contract of your choosing.
If another team outbids you, just press a button to increase the bid and become the leader.
Keep an eye on your cap room. We’ve made the cap a lot more challenging this year, so you can’t just sign every free agent. You’ll still need to save room to sign your draft rookies. The screenshot below was taken before we started tuning cap room. You’re not going to have $100 million to play with this year.
Player Roles
“One of the favorite features from the last generation is back!”
One of the most requested community features from the PS2 and Xbox days is back and since it’s also one of my favorites, I was excited to include it in Franchise mode this year.
I know a lot of people like it because it adds a bit of an RPG element to the game.
There are more than 20 different roles that players can earn in Franchise mode, including “QB of the Future”, “Mentor” and “Fumble Prone”.
We’ve even added a handful of new roles like ‘Playoff Performer’, ‘Trench Warrior’ and ‘Iron Man’.
Most of the roles will have an in-game impact. Shutdown Corner, for instance, impacts the ratings of the player that has it AND the QB on the opposing team.
The roles are earned or lost based on defined criteria every offseason so players will not keep them forever. Most of the roles come with logic that changes how teams approach the draft and free agency. If a team has a ‘QB of the Future’ on the roster, they will not draft a QB in the first round of the draft.
If you have a mentor on your roster, he makes the young players better as long as he’s on the team.
Bringing this feature back is just a great way to adding depth to the mode and making individual players stand out a little more.
Change Teams
This is another one of those features that has been a community request for years.
Right before the offseason starts, you can change the team you’re controlling to any other team.
You can even choose to control all 32 teams at that point if you want to.
Future Draft Picks
I can’t mention community requested features without talking about Future Draft Picks, which we’ve also added this year.
It’s pretty simple…when making a trade, you can trade away the current year draft picks or next year’s picks.
This allows you to mortgage the future for a player you want to trade up to get in this year’s draft.
Or pretend you are the Patriots and trade down throughout the NFL Draft for next year’s picks
Edit Players
This is one we talked to you about on Twitter and the forums.
After some discussion, we agreed that Franchise mode is yours to control and that we needed to give you the ability to edit the ratings of any player in Franchise mode, whether they are veterans or the rookies you just imported from NCAA Football.
If you want some QB you imported to be an 85 overall because you won the Heisman with him, you’re welcome to edit him to be that high. It’s all up to you
Practice Mode
This may seem like a small addition but, to me, it’s big. Being able to practice with your Franchise mode team at any point in the preseason, regular season or playoffs without having to export them allows you to get a look at your team at any time.
Increased Injury Chances and Injured Reserve Fixed
If expanded rosters is the most requested community feature, fixing injured reserve is a close second.
It’s great that adding expanded rosters actually allowed us to fix IR since the game can now handle having more than 55 players on a team.
This year, players are automatically placed on IR and that opens up a roster spot for the team to sign a replacement for him.
CPU controlled teams now place players on injured reserve and sign a replacement if they need to.
Franchise Mode Dynamic Gameplans
We’ve also added a pretty cool new feature that makes teams re-evaluate their game plan based on their starting QB in future years.
Take the Colts for instance. In year one, if you control them or face them as an opponent, they will naturally throw the ball more based on their real life tendencies and because they have Peyton Manning on the roster.
In Franchise mode, if Manning gets hurt or retires, the team will adjust their play calling so that they run the ball more if they have a lower rated QB at the helm until he progresses enough to be able to throw the ball 30-40 times a game.
Revamped Import Draft Class Tuning
This year, AJ Dembroski (our newest rookie designer who some of you may know as one of the biggest Madden fans in the forums) worked a lot on getting players imported from NCAA Football to be more consistent.
Last year, if you imported someone who in your mind was a sure top 5 pick, he could enter your franchise as an 85 or a 65 overall player. There was just too much randomness in the system.
Now he enters the game every time you import him between an 80-87 overall if he’s one of the best players in the import class.
30 Brand New Draft Classes featuring Realistic Player Profiles
We created 30 brand new draft classes from scratch and added a new twist this year.
We’ve created player profiles (scrambling QB, 3-4 DE, power HB, speed WR) that are mixed in with the random guys so that you’ll find players that fit your offensive/defensive scheme and provide a more realistic experience.
Teams in the draft have a preference toward those players and will lean towards drafting them if they have the chance. That means the Raiders will draft a Speed WR if given the choice between him and a possession WR.
We’ve also randomized names and numbers this year so that you won’t recognize individual players each time you start a new franchise.
Progression Tuning
Another one of AJ’s tasks was focusing on progression and making it more realistic this year.
Last year, players would go up automatically regardless of their season stats. This year’s tuning is much more predictable. Players will go up or down based on their performance and age.
One thing to remember is that players are judged against players around their same age when deciding who should progress or not. So, if a rookie running back rushes for 500 yards and that is the best among his peers, he will progress the most in his age group.
Most players who are 32+ will decline every year unless they had the best years vs. their peers. If they did, they will typically stay the same or go down slightly.
Players in the prime of their careers can go up or down, but they can’t go up as much as young players or down as much as old players. And…yes, you guessed it. They are also judged only against the players around their age.
Revamped Team Re-Sign and New Cut Dead Weight Logic
This is another one of my favorite changes/features this year.
Last year, a team like the 49ers would always re-sign a player like Alex Smith because they had no other alternative on the team at his position. They would never take his potential into account and keep him on the roster for years.
This year they’ll make decisions more intelligently, getting rid of Smith and addressing the QB position in free agency or the draft.
They’ll also try to keep a young player with lots of potential under contract as long as it makes sense.
Along with rewriting the re-sign logic, we’ve also added some new team management logic in the offseason that forces teams to make realistic decisions.
In last year’s game, the Redskins would have signed Donovan McNabb to a 7 year deal and kept him on the roster until 2017 until the deal expired.
This year, they take a look at the roster every offseason and evaluate every player individually. If they feel like McNabb is over the hill, they cut him and move on. This leads to plenty of player movement in the offseason and makes the FA Bidding feature a lot more realistic.
We’ve been careful about teams cutting stars and we discussed this in length with the group of Franchise fans that have joined our Facebook Franchise Discussion Group.
We all agreed that we should make sure someone like Peyton Manning never gets cut, but if a 88-91 overall HB gets cut or not re-signed every now and then, that’s pretty realistic ala LaDainian Tomlinson with the Chargers.
New Salary System
After hearing complaints about how the old salary system was hard to deal with last year, we added a new salary system for players, which apply to veterans and draft rookies.
Last year, rookies would sign contracts based on their positions and ratings…so if you took a 70 overall HB #1 in the draft, he would ask for a 3 year/15 million dollar deal as the 1st pick (which is extremely unrealistic).
Rookies now sign contracts based solely on their position and their draft pick. If you take a QB with the first overall pick, expect to pay him a lot.
As far as the re-sign stage goes, players now sign contracts based on their age, overall rating and potential. Older players will always sign shorter deals for less money as their careers wind down while teams may try to lock up a young player with lots of potential with an expensive deal.
Re-Tuned Simulation Stats
We’re working on fixing OLB sacks, rushing yards and all of the other small issues we had last year.
As always, trying to replicate what 32 teams and 1800+ human players accomplish over a five month period in the NFL is tricky…but we’ll get it as perfect as we can.
This work isn’t done yet…it’s always one of the last things we fix before we ship the game.
Weather Tuning
Last year we had lots of issues with weather. It would never snow in Green Bay in January, etc.
I put AJ on this task to make sure that you’ll see more weather changes in climates where inclement weather is common.
Revamped Player Retirements
Last year, very few players retired each year in our game. We’ve addressed that by making sure that older players retire at a slightly quicker rate, allowing for young players to take over and get a chance to contribute.
Revamped Player Award Logic
This is a small change but the tuning makes the players that win yearly awards more realistic. We’ve tuned Pro Bowl logic, MVP Logic and all of the logic used for the other awards.
New Player Portraits for Draft Rookies
Rookies now look just like the real NFL players with a new portrait system that removes the cartoony look in Franchise screens.
We tried to add as many portraits as we could so that the way the rookies look in the menus no longer ruins that immersion factor for you.
New Depth Chart Logic
We also changed the depth chart logic this year to be more realistic.
Last year, teams would start a FS at the nickel corner spot if his ratings were good enough.
This year, that player would stay at FS while the real nickel corner would take the correct place in the depth chart.
New Coach Impacts
This is a small feature, but it brings some strategy to signing a coach.
Coaches now impact players on the field positively AND negatively by a small amount.
This is meant to emulate the strengths and weaknesses that each coach has.
The gameplay mechanic is deciding which positive/negative impact you are willing to take on.
Do you want to make your QBs better while your Defensive Line suffers a bit or make your corners better while making your O-Line drop a bit?
Guardy94 escribió:Madden NFL 12 ha sido elegido como mejor juego deportivo de E3 2011, aun se espera fecha para demo que sera para mediados de este mes.. mas o menos...
Quien se lo va a comprar casi fijo?
lo que sucede todos los domingos. Un jugador tira un juego y que afecta a su rendimiento para el resto del juego. Se clava en la cabeza y de repente cayó un pase se convierte en tres caídas y algunas rutas mal gestionado. Algunos jugadores son más susceptibles a estas cosas que otros. A veces empieza a afectar a todo el equipo. En los juegos de Madden en el pasado, las calificaciones de un jugador se quedó estática de la cara de la moneda hasta el pitido final. Pero esto ya no será el caso. En Madden 12, el rendimiento de cualquier jugador a través de un juego de forma dinámica afecta a sus estadísticas.
Previamente, reveló cómo el modo de Madden NFL 12 en franquicia maneja las fluctuaciones de rendimiento de un jugador en el transcurso de una temporada. Bueno, eso se aplica a todas las jugadas de cada partido. Cada jugador es clasificado de su confianza y consistencia, que ayuda a determinar cuánto se ven afectadas por el juego de buenos y malos.
Madden NFL 12 Juego de remolque
Jay Cutler puede lanzar un pico y comenzar rápidamente a descender a un transeúnte de 75 clasificados. Pero también puede encadenar terminaciones y saltar hasta un total de 90 Puntuación en un juego. Peyton Manning no tendrá los cambios severos en cualquier dirección. Podría haber un partido difícil, aquí y allá o un desempeño particularmente fuerte, pero en general, es Peyton Peyton cada vez que entra a la cancha.
La esperanza es que no hay dos juegos de la historia será la misma y que Madden finalmente captura la esencia de cada jugador de la NFL. A tal fin, las tendencias y los rasgos se dan para cualquier persona que las correas en un casco. Ante la presión, Brady es poco probable que correr y tiende a tirar la pelota en lugar de honda que violentamente en el tráfico. Vick no tiene miedo de meter y salir cuando se siente un poco de calor. Los rasgos de ser bastante específicas, como la tendencia a cubrir la pelota contra un bateador medio. Sí, es específico.
Estas tendencias ayudan a determinar cómo reaccionan los jugadores en el campo. Pero es lo que sucede después de cada jugada que hace cosas interesantes. Estas tendencias pueden cambiar durante el juego, en función de la psique del jugador. Algunos se desmoronan rápidamente cuando las cosas empiezan a ir mal.
Obtener un buen golpe en Eli Manning, por ejemplo, y empieza a presionar. Que podría deshacerse de la pelota un poco más rápido, empezar a leer mal la defensa en su prisa. Peyton Hillis lucha por cada yarda, pero si la tos temprano, va a ser más conscientes de la protección de la pelota. Él va a cubrir con mayor frecuencia, haciendo todo lo posible para asegurar la pelota. Que podría costarle un patio de aquí o allá, sino que también limita el riesgo de otro balón suelto.
Vick será meter y correr?
Conocer los jugadores en el campo puede ser una ventaja importante el domingo. T.O. falta de concentración. Si él no está involucrado en el juego, que podría caer un pase decisivo. Usted sabe que esto. Por lo tanto, como entrenador, usted necesita llamar a un corto, alto porcentaje de obras para AL para construir su confianza y lo mantendrá concentrado. Porque cuando está centrado, que todavía podrían surgir grandes cuando se le necesita. De lo contrario, podría minar la confianza de todos a su alrededor.
Eso es cierto - los jugadores no sólo se afectan, pero puede influir en todo un equipo. Cuando un mariscal de campo tiene que ir, se puede dinamizar un delito entero. Un gran líder, por ejemplo, puede aumentar no sólo su propio juego, pero los que le rodean. Y actores influyentes que han perdido la confianza puede bajar el juego de todo el equipo. Funciona en ambos sentidos.
El concepto es sólido y podría ser el cambio más grande a Madden en años. Pero también podría enviar el juego completo de Madden de los carriles si no está perfectamente equilibrada. He jugado un juego de Madden 12, que no es suficiente para juzgar la calidad de Rendimiento jugador dinámico. Si el equipo de Tiburón puede sacar esto adelante, será algo especial.
Me quedo con esto, que cada uno entienda lo que quieraVick será meter y correr
Deadly Heretic escribió:Me quedo con esto, que cada uno entienda lo que quieraVick será meter y correr
pd: Correr es lo mejor, sobre todo cuando haces un draw y la defensa te derriba sin haber empezado...
ArcticAlex escribió:pues en el fifa no, y en el madden imagino que tampoco, basicamente porque para comprar sobres necesitas conexion, asi como para jugar
por que no esta disponible la demo del NCAA 12 en el bazar de xbox ?